Posts by D wiltshire

8

Mom, Where Have You Been?

by Sentinel in

dear friends,.

just to remind you, my mom has been a faithful jw borg since 1959. she will be 78 in a couple weeks.

she is a widow and lives alone.

Having to listen to her tell me how close the end is, and that when it comes "then, I'll see" seems an unnessary cruelty on her part. It seems to me to be "judging" and "labeling", especially of her own children, who are good, upright, citizens.

I can feel for you I know how hard it must be to here those type of words.

You poor mother is so conditioned by the Borg she thinks her words to you are showing love. Sad to say most loyal JWs have a warp way of expressing love. I think she loves you but only knows the JW way to express it,..namely warn those they concider God is going to destroy. You have my sympathy.

101

A NEW SIGN OUT FRONT AT BETHEL!

by Mary in

jw
friends

i think it's time bethel got a new sign out front, one that really speaks volumes and is far more suitable to their "read god's word the bible daily.

i was thinking: .

oh what a web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!

D wiltshire

Read God's Word Daily with the Help of the Watchtower and Other Bible Study Aid WE Print.

7

Confidential Friends in the Truth!

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

from: reseacher tony_jw

tony replays: i must say something here guys, .

D wiltshire

Prisca,

You should go over there they are haveing some interesting coversations.

http://groups.msn.com/JustJWs/1.msnw?pgmarket=en-gb

7

Confidential Friends in the Truth!

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

from: reseacher tony_jw

tony replays: i must say something here guys, .

D wiltshire

This if from JustJW forum and the theme of the discussion is

"Confidential Friends in the Truth"

From: applebee (Original Message)

Sent: 26/06/2002 08:19

I'm sure we all have friends in the Truth that we can relax with and be ourselves. I know I do. We get together and can be honest about some of our inner feelings, they don't judge us if we don't see things the way the Society tells us we should see them. I'm not saying things like immorality or other bad things of that nature, but someone that we can let our hair down and talk about things we know(or feel) need to be changed in order for God's spirit to be more active in the congregation. I find it very soothing to have friends like this, they don't reveal the confidential talk to others and if we are wrong they kindly show us where we are wrong in such a way that shows that they are really our friend and respect us. They are sorta like a hiding place where you get feed back that is wholesome and not always trying to tow the party line so to speak. I have had some fellow elders that were older than me that I felt very easy to talk to and they didn't always follow the rules laid out the Elders hand book. Many of these older men were more merciful than myself and taught me things that I feel have brought me closer to Jehovah. I guess you can call this a sort of public thanks to such mild tempered ones. Anyway I pray for their peace as they have helped me see the bigger picture, that in my youth I didn't get. On the flip side there are those that can't see past some written rule book in there dealing with fellow elders or friends in general, from these I shy away because I can't get honest with them I have to say what I'm suppose to say or they will right away give me counsel that to me lacks any insight and is lacking in Love. I do feel the Bible is right when it talks about these confidential friend in such a positive way. I think Jesus must have been such a friend to all he had any extended dealings with. I hope I can imatate him more. I know we all fall short but that's one quality of his that I want to keep trying to improve on.

2-16 of 16 Next Last

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Message 2 of 16 in Discussion

From: Ben

Sent: 26/06/2002 14:13

Thank you for a very thoughtful post. I agree with you that the type of friends you speak of are very valuable but they are also very rare. This is one of the things that has disturbed me for quite a while nowthis business of not being able to speak ones mind openly. Sort of takes away the notion of the freedom we are supposed to have. (smile)

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Message 3 of 16 in Discussion

From: jw4jah24

Sent: 26/06/2002 14:50

Ben said: "I agree with you that the type of friends you speak of are very valuable but they are also very rare. This is one of the things that has disturbed me for quite a while nowthis business of not being able to speak ones mind openly. Sort of takes away the notion of the freedom we are supposed to have." I agree. There really is a lack of freedom in the cong. worldwide in some respects. Sometimes I think it mirrors what the Pharisees had back in the old days. I think it should be okay to speak our minds openly, if we are not speaking in order to have an audience or to draw attention to ourselves and our supposed wisdom.

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Message 4 of 16 in Discussion

From: reseacher tony_JW

Sent: 26/06/2002 15:11

You said: I think Jesus must have been such a friend to all he had any extended dealings with. Just a brain storm here, Even had to be "perfected" , tested, and learn many things about being human. To understand our sufferings better. Just think, One moment your the creators Son, and next your the creation... learning to cope with lifes problems, pains, fears, sorrows.

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Message 5 of 16 in Discussion

From: reseacher tony_JW

Sent: 26/06/2002 15:45

Ben said:
I guess I got too close to the curtain.

I saw the wizard pulling the levers and now the show is not quite the same anymore.

jw4jah24 said: I agree. There really is a lack of freedom in the cong. worldwide in some respects. Sometimes I think it mirrors what the Pharisees had back in the old days. I think it should be okay to speak our minds openly, if we are not speaking in order to have an audience or to draw attention to ourselves and our supposed wisdom.

----------------------------------------

Tony replays: I must say something here guys,

I put my foot many a time in my mouth, but to talk like this( quotes above) is not a little matter, shows lack of loyalty, love, and concern for others feelings.

What you dare to talk like that in Jesus ear, or in prayer to Jehovah. Watch out. Watch that mouth, watch that heart does not become wicked.

Of course we all think bad thoughts, and must slap ourselves now and then for dumb things we say. But you can't say any thing you want to you Mate(wife), or children.

Somethings you can't take it back, ( be angry, but don't SIN with you mouth )

Freedom to speak, freedom to put foot in mouth, but don't shot your self in the foot.

Disrespectful talk, gets you an cold shoulder, and distrust from others. Both in the family and anywhere else too.

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Message 6 of 16 in Discussion

From: jw4jah24

Sent: 26/06/2002 16:58

Tony Said:

"Tony replays: I must say something here guys, I put my foot many a time in my mouth, but to talk like this( quotes above) is not a little matter, shows lack of loyalty, love, and concern for others feelings. What you dare to talk like that in Jesus ear, or in prayer to Jehovah. Watch out. Watch that mouth, watch that heart does not become wicked. Of course we all think bad thoughts, and must slap ourselves now and then for dumb things we say. But you can't say any thing you want to you Mate(wife), or children. Somethings you can't take it back, ( be angry, but don't SIN with you mouth ) Freedom to speak, freedom to put foot in mouth, but don't shot your self in the foot. Disrespectful talk, gets you an cold shoulder, and distrust from others. Both in the family and anywhere else too."

Tony, how exactly did my words show a lack of loyalty, love, and concern for others? Where was disrespectfulness shown in my words? Methinks you place too much emphasis on the slave class. I respect the slave and I am loyal to the decisions made by the slave, but first and foremost my loyalty is to Jehovah God and Christ his son. They are not subject to error. The slave is, since they are only human. If I am in error on this, please admonish me with Scripture.

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Message 7 of 16 in Discussion

From: reseacher tony_JW

Sent: 27/06/2002 00:16

To me and you and to all, I say we must always... Watch out. Watch that mouth, watch that heart. Review those bible drama tapes, like the one about the 40 years the Isrealites spent in the wilderness.. and then read you posts again. Ask your self, could your foot be close to slipping.. We alway need to keep an eye on our selves, as to how we are walking, and how we are talking. I won't say more, just a reminder for you, and me too. You can kick my butt, when it's needed too.

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Message 8 of 16 in Discussion

From: jw4jah24

Sent: 27/06/2002 05:18

Tony said: To me and you and to all, I say we must always... Watch out. Watch that mouth, watch that heart. Review those bible drama tapes, like the one about the 40 years the Isrealites spent in the wilderness.. and then read you posts again. Ask your self, could your foot be close to slipping.. We alway need to keep an eye on our selves, as to how we are walking, and how we are talking. I won't say more, just a reminder for you, and me too. You can kick my butt, when it's needed too. Tony, if you see anything wrong with what I've said, please show me what it was and please admonish me with Scripture. Thank you.

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Message 9 of 16 in Discussion

From: Ben

Sent: 27/06/2002 05:51

Hello Tony,

**I put my foot many a time in my mouth, but to talk like this( quotes above) is not a little matter, shows lack of loyalty, love, and concern for others feelings. **

Lack of loyalty to whom? I was asked a question and I answered it as truthfully as I could. Why should that cause hurt feelings? I have insulted no one nor have I spoken harshly to anyone.

If you disagree you merely have to say so. That is what freedom is. (smile) It appears that you are calling us wicked. Perhaps you dont mean this but the insinuation is there. You have yet to demonstrate that either of us is guilty of harboring "bad thoughts". What "bad thought" are you referring to?

The suppression of ideas, be they criticisms or not, is not condusive to freedom. One of the greatest attributes of freedom is the freedom to express ones feelings and thoughts with words.

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Message 10 of 16 in Discussion

From: reseacher tony_JW

Sent: 28/06/2002 08:23

Many Israelites died in the wilderness, just because they exercised too much freedom (criticism) with the mouth.

It was not Moses that destroyed thousand of them, but it was Jehovah that hear then.

Their crime, "dare to speak against my servant Moses".

The Great tribulation is coming,
worse is coming,
more things to criticizes,
and many may die just because of that thing called "the big MOUTH".

Just dont die because you talked to much, "against my servant Moses".

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Message 11 of 16 in Discussion

From: jazmyn

Sent: 28/06/2002 11:17

so, someone please explain, why is there a 'lack of freedom we are supposed to have' as you say? Why are not elders following what is instructed in the elder's handbook? Why is it difficult to 'speak your mind freely'? Are we speaking of varied judgements in assocoations, doctrines, or what exactly?

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Message 12 of 16 in Discussion

From: Captain_Commendable_jw

Sent: 28/06/2002 11:31

(1 Peter 2:16) Be as free people, and yet holding

YOUR freedom, not as a blind for badness, but as slaves of God.

Freedom is relative.

Anon

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Message 13 of 16 in Discussion

From: Captain_Commendable_jw

Sent: 28/06/2002 11:40

I wish I could think of these all at one time...

(Psalm 39:1) I said: "I will guard my ways To keep from sinning with my tongue. I will set a muzzle as a guard to my own mouth, As long as anyone wicked is in front of me."

Anon

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Message 14 of 16 in Discussion

From: reseacher tony_JW

Sent: 28/06/2002 15:05

Two point we see here, let's review..

*** Rbi8 James 5:1-11 ***

5 Come, now, YOU rich [men], weep, howling over YOUR miseries that are coming upon YOU . 2 Y OUR riches have rotted, and YOUR outer garments have become moth-eaten. 3 Y OUR gold and silver are rusted away, and their rust will be as a witness against YOU and will eat YOUR fleshy parts. Something like fire is what YOU have stored up in the last days. 4 Look! The wages due the workers who harvested YOUR fields but which are held up by YOU , keep crying out, and the calls for help on the part of the reapers have entered into the ears of Jehovah of armies. 5 Y OU have lived in luxury upon the earth and have gone in for sensual pleasure. Y OU have fattened YOUR hearts on the day of slaughter. 6 Y OU have condemned, YOU have murdered the righteous one. Is he not opposing YOU ?

7

Exercise patience, therefore, brothers, until the presence of the Lord. Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until he gets the early rain and the late rain. 8 Y OU too exercise patience; make YOUR hearts firm, because the presence of the Lord has drawn close.9 Do not heave sighs against one another, brothers, so that YOU do not get judged. Look! The Judge is standing before the doors.

10 Brothers, take as a pattern of the suffering of evil and the exercising of patience the prophets, who spoke in the name of Jehovah. 11 Look! We pronounce happy those who have endured. Y OU have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome Jehovah gave, that Jehovah is very tender in affection and merciful.

*** Rbi8 Matthew 24:18-22 ***
19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days!

20 Keep praying that

YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the worlds beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.

22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

You many leave this old system without that nice shirt on your back, for there may not even bread in the city.

---------------------------

Don't be surpised if you Cable TV is not working, and there is no music on the radio.

*** Rbi8 Zephaniah 1:14-18 ***

14 "The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying [of it] very much. The sound of the day of Jehovah is bitter. There a mighty man is letting out a cry. 15 That day is a day of fury, a day of distress and of anguish, a day of storm and of desolation, a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick gloom, 16 a day of horn and of alarm signal, against the fortified cities and against the high corner towers.

17 And I will cause distress to mankind, and they will certainly walk like blind men; because it is against Jehovah that they have sinned. And their blood will actually be poured out like dust, and their bowels like the dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovahs fury; but by the fire of his zeal the whole earth will be devoured, because he will make an extermination, indeed a terrible one, of all the inhabitants of the earth."

Your Picnic just maybe over... Are you ready... will you still have that endurence... if not it will cost you your life.

"Children, please take you seats.. you test is about to begin..."

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Message 15 of 16 in Discussion

From: Ben

Sent: 28/06/2002 15:19

Tony:

Are you suggesting that the Society is on equal footing with Moses?

Moses was able to demonstrate with miracles that he was sent by God.

Moses did not banish people for disagreeing with him. He left that for God to do. I have yet to see God send down fire from heaven for speaking out against the Society. But I have seen them banish people for disagreeing with their man made rules. So tell me how your illustration works here. (smile)

Hello, jaz:

**so, someone please explain,

why is there a 'lack of freedom we are supposed to have' as you say?

Why are not elders following what is instructed in the elder's handbook?

Why is it difficult to 'speak your mind freely'?

Are we speaking of varied judgements in assocoations, doctrines, or what exactly?**

+The game is control, power over people. In order to control someone you have to take away some of their freedom.

+Its been my experience that by far the majority of elders are not qualified to hold their position. Most are uneducated with no formal training to equip them to counsel people in this modern, sophisticated world. I think that J.R. Brown (head of the P.R. dept for the society) said it best when he was asked a similar question about why these child molestation cases were being bungled. He said concerning elders: "They are unpaid volunteers."

+To speak your mind freely would challenge this power held over your head. To speak freely would mean that many of the silly things we went along with for years (aluminum cookware being poisonous, vaccinations being dangerous, Gods throne being in a particular constellation, etc) would have quickly been dismissed as just plain ridiculous.

+I dont understand your last question.

Hello Capt.

** (1 Peter 2:16) Be as free people, and yet holding YOUR freedom, not as a blind for badness, but as slaves of God. **

Key word is "God". Jesus was very plain on how he felt about those who added to Gods word, thereby creating an unnecessary burden for Gods people.

**(Psalm 39:1) I said: "I will guard my ways To keep from sinning with my tongue. I will set a muzzle as a guard to my own mouth, As long as anyone wicked is in front of me."**

Excellent scripture. One facet of this may be something that you may not have realized yet. When you say something as a representative of God you are, in essence, speaking for God and if what you say is false, then you are sinning with your tongue and should heed the last part of the scripture.

If I speak my opinion I make it know that it is just that. If I were to claim to speak for God that would be an entirely different matter. If only ONE thing that I said as Gods spokesman or channel of communication did not come true I would be making God a liarHow do you think God feels about that???

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Message 16 of 16 in Discussion

From: reseacher tony_JW

Sent: 28/06/2002 15:37

*** Rbi8 Matthew 25:31-46 ***
31 "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

34 "Then the king will say to those on his right, Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and

YOU gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and YOU gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and YOU received me hospitably; 36 naked, and YOU clothed me. I fell sick and YOU looked after me. I was in prison and YOU came to me. 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you? 40 And in reply the king will say to them , Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.

If you dont support CHRISTS BROTHERS,(anointed remnent,ect) then what, what will Christ do to you (left side or the right side)

41 "Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 42 For I became hungry, but YOU gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but YOU gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but YOU did not receive me hospitably; naked, but YOU did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but YOU did not look after me. 44 Then they also will answer with the words, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you? 45 Then he will answer them with the words, Truly I say to YOU , To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me. 46 And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."

155

WORLD OF LIES COMING UNRAVELED

by You Know in

some historians date the beginning of the end of the soviet empire to the chernobyl disaster, for the reason that for several days after the explosion, as the radioactive cloud floated quietly over europe, the soviet government said nothing to warn people of the dangers that may have minimized some of the exposure.

it ruined their credibility, from which they never recovered.

presently, the whole capitalist system has an even worse credibility problem.

D wiltshire

EMan,

That's exactly what I thought too.

But as I only skim read anything YK writes I was sadly mistaken. One can only hope.

I do think if we apply this title to the WT it would make much more sense. It will come unraveled.

17

Do Your Emotions Come Back When You Leave a Cult?

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

do your emotions come back when you leave a cult?.

i believe they do perhaps as gradually as they left.. i remember when i was 18 yrs old and first started becoming a jw that was 30 yrs ago and the one thing i remember is that i loved my worldly relatives and wanted so much for them to get saved and the emotional torture i went though thinking they were all going to die soon at armageddon.

it was really hard to cope with the thought of them all being destroyed.. i work really hard not to think about it, and over time i started to view all my nonjw relatives as worthy of destruction at gods hands in order to have my thinking line up with gods.

D wiltshire

I want to thank everyone for your comments different pionts of veiw are benificial and reflect what we really happen to them after leaving the Borg in our beleifs.

I'm sure some new ones that are just finding out that WT uses mind control will get some encouragement from your experiences.

Introspection, some of my realizations about my emotions have come to me clearer thru meditation useing brain wave CDs.

17

Do Your Emotions Come Back When You Leave a Cult?

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

do your emotions come back when you leave a cult?.

i believe they do perhaps as gradually as they left.. i remember when i was 18 yrs old and first started becoming a jw that was 30 yrs ago and the one thing i remember is that i loved my worldly relatives and wanted so much for them to get saved and the emotional torture i went though thinking they were all going to die soon at armageddon.

it was really hard to cope with the thought of them all being destroyed.. i work really hard not to think about it, and over time i started to view all my nonjw relatives as worthy of destruction at gods hands in order to have my thinking line up with gods.

D wiltshire

Recovering your old personality will come I think, as you correct all the shit the WT put in your head. It seems to me everyday I find myself changing, almost like I'm makeing up for lost time.

Many things we do in a mindless way through out the day that are from the conditioning we recieved from the WT .

Often I find myself being more mindfull of why I feel certain ways and realize that much of it is carry overs that our fading as the mind control is losing its grip. I don't think it can be any other way if you have spent many years in a cult.

17

Do Your Emotions Come Back When You Leave a Cult?

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

do your emotions come back when you leave a cult?.

i believe they do perhaps as gradually as they left.. i remember when i was 18 yrs old and first started becoming a jw that was 30 yrs ago and the one thing i remember is that i loved my worldly relatives and wanted so much for them to get saved and the emotional torture i went though thinking they were all going to die soon at armageddon.

it was really hard to cope with the thought of them all being destroyed.. i work really hard not to think about it, and over time i started to view all my nonjw relatives as worthy of destruction at gods hands in order to have my thinking line up with gods.

D wiltshire

Do Your Emotions Come Back When You Leave a Cult?

I believe they do perhaps as gradually as they left.

I remember when I was 18 yrs old and first started becoming a JW that was 30 yrs ago and the one thing I remember is that I loved my worldly relatives and wanted so much for them to get saved and the emotional torture I went though thinking they were all going to die soon at Armageddon. It was really hard to cope with the thought of them all being destroyed.

I work really hard not to think about it, and over time I started to view all my nonJW relatives as worthy of destruction at Gods hands in order to have my thinking line up with Gods. Thats how I coped and slowly over time lost a great deal of natural affection for friends and family. I thought that was Jehovahs will.

How sick can that be!!!!

Ive been out now about a little over a year and one of the first things that happened to me, is Im able to cry. For years I have not been able to do it. Even when my fleshly sister died about 13 yrs ago I couldnt cry and I wanted to so desperately but nothing, I felt dead inside.

Finally after leaving this God-awful cult my crying came back and I been able to make up for some lost crying time. I hate to ever cry in public you look so pathetic, but when Im alone and think about the many people I know who have died, or some other tragedy has happened to them, it makes me cry, and I feel more human again.

I think this is a good sign that one is coming back to reality, and returning to his original self before the cult .

42

Did you use drugs and go...INSANE!?

by refiners fire in

jw
friends

when i was 27 my brother held a bucks night party for my first marriage and we went to a strip joint.

de rigeure for the boys bucks night.

it was all a bit of a none event, so next night he brought around drugs to my house, marijuana.

D wiltshire

Old hipster,

It is hard to get genuine peyote no a days because it is so rare only the north American Indians grow it for religious use, and most of the wild growing stuff is very hard to find.

You can however trip on natural mescaline from the San Pedro (Peruvian the most potent).

Click on this site for the more comprehensive info:

http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/psychoactives.shtml

PRIMARY PLANT SOURCES

Peyote (Lophophora spp.) San Pedro & Peruvian Torch (Trichocereus spp.)

The use of the Herb or Root called Peyote. . . is a superstitious action
and reproved as opposed to the purity and sincerity of our Holy Catholic Faith,
being so that this said herb, nor any other cannot possess the virtue and natural
efficacy attributed to it for said effects, nor to cause the images, phantasms and
representations on which are founded said divinations, and that in these one sees
notoriously the suggestion and assistance of the devil, author of this abuse.
--- Inquisitors against heresy, depravity and apostasy
---June 19 1620, Mexico City

42

Did you use drugs and go...INSANE!?

by refiners fire in

jw
friends

when i was 27 my brother held a bucks night party for my first marriage and we went to a strip joint.

de rigeure for the boys bucks night.

it was all a bit of a none event, so next night he brought around drugs to my house, marijuana.

D wiltshire

WHen I was a teenager(30 yrs ago). I smoked about a quarter once of some panama red that freaked me out until I finally fell asleep. I wanted to see how high I could get.

I think some people should not smoke pot because of the bad effects that it can have on certain ones, but that others are helped by it. Some use it to fight depression or for other health benifits.

Paranoia occurs to all but with proper education can be overcome as one learns to let go and lets the stone run its coarse. Panic has a snowball effect.

I started to use MJ about a year and ahalf ago again after 29 yrs of obstanance, it lead to me comming out of mind control by allowing me to look at things in a different way, perhaps because my minds thoughts were scatter enough to allow me to come to the realization that the dubs were a cult, or maybe because of the intense focus it gave me that lead to my relization I was under mind control.

I often go for long walks(alone) were i smoke a joint and many times durring these walks have come to a better understandin of myself and other. This has helped me very much, I don't want to live my life stoned, but do appreciate the thearaputic value of MJ.

Some stories have actually been written of person learning to think better with the aid of MJ while it may be rare there are people that do funtion better if they are mildly stoned.

Silicon Valley and the internet developement have been attributed to in part, the fact that many who were instrumental key players used psycoactive chemicals in a keeping their mind more open to ideas. There a book in the Sunnyvale libriary on the subect of tripping that documents many trips had by some of these persons and explains how it helped them. True? well I would keep an open mind.